Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it?

Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it? Andrew S 5/12/24 4:30 AM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it shargrol 5/12/24 6:26 AM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Andrew S 5/12/24 12:47 PM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it kettu 5/12/24 11:11 AM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Pawel K 5/12/24 11:45 AM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Andrew S 5/12/24 12:54 PM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Todo 5/12/24 3:58 PM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Andrew S 5/12/24 5:50 PM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Jim Smith 5/12/24 9:02 PM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Dream Walker 5/13/24 9:01 AM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Andrew S 5/13/24 8:45 PM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it kettu 5/14/24 1:21 AM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Chris Protheroe 5/20/24 5:21 PM
Thread Split Chris M 5/23/24 9:33 AM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it Andrew S 5/23/24 8:32 PM
RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it shargrol 5/24/24 5:42 AM
Andrew S, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 4:30 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 4:30 AM

Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it?

Posts: 34 Join Date: 1/9/24 Recent Posts
I've been reading into emptiness while doing a mild meditation practice. I think I'm still in the dark night so this is probably why I'm freaked out about everything.

The notion of everything being fabricated is really freaking me out. In particular, the idea that space, time and awareness are fabricated just made of sensations. I understand that there is a sense of distance in my mind when I am looking at something far away and that is probably some kind of sensation and I can kind of see the fabrication going on.

However, the space of awareness is far more difficult to wrap my head around. I notice sensations coming and going but there must be a space in which these sensations arise and pass? It seems so obvious that sensations occur in different places which implies some kind of space. Or does it?

One of the things that really help me ​​​get through the dark night is by noticing the spaciousness where sensations arise. I can kind of tap into this vast, still spaciousness and rest there for a bit which helps. But apparently this is some kind of illusion?

​​Apparently this is supposed to be freeing but I feel more claustrophobic now. I feel like I must be getting something wrong or looking at it the wrong way. Can anyone clarify this for me?
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shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 6:26 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 6:26 AM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 2565 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I think it's inevitable to feel that way as part of the growing/developing process. Meditation isn't always going to be space and freedom, sometimes we go through times when it's claustrophobic and freaky. 

The big questions are: do you think you have the right understanding to be able to meet this challenge? Do you have the right psychological resilience to be able to meet this challenge? And do you have a dependable support group to help you if things go badly?

When things get challenging in meditation, treat it as a flashing warning sign. Don't necessarily stop, but definitely go slowly and make sure you are safe and supported with the information, skills, and support you might need.

All of your questions can only be REALLY answered through your own experience with meditation. There are philosophical answers to fabrication, space, emptiness, awareness, self... but those are just words. Meditation goes beyond words and into the actual experience of these things and most of the time the "truth" is either unable to be truly captured in words or its is paradoxical (there is no self, but I still have the same email account and favorite ice cream flavor)... which is why these message boards are helpful and yet completely unhelpful too. emoticon emoticon

Just as a final thought... basically mediation involves learning to be cool during these odd and potentially disturbing experiences -- and then things in real life just don't have the same pain/suffering. It's not really about philosophically/intellectually understanding. It's about sitting with the actual experience and getting used to it, which also allows us to dis-identify with it. Meditation is all about going >into< an experience in the safe space of meditation... but if we don't feel safe enough in doing that, then definitely stop, reassess, and only continue if we feel that we won't be doing harm to ourself if we continue. 

​​​​​​​Hope this is somewhat helpful in some way.
kettu, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 11:11 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 11:10 AM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 51 Join Date: 10/31/17 Recent Posts
Couple of thoughts. Hopefully not totally uselwss!

Why would it be a problem to have some illusion in the mix included in the refreshing spacious cup of resting in a relatively aware moment? I’m fairly sure even most clarified minds have a degree of illusion working in them. Illusion and reality both work together. Are they completely without shared qualities? How would i know?

Maybe mistakes are energy for the process (of insight, or what ever is your aim), something needed for learning. Learning (through mistakes) may be even fun, letting oneself experiment and play along with the inner life while practicing. It’s not a fist fight against a psycho-killer,  is it?

​​​​​​​all the best!
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 11:45 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 11:45 AM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
We are animals and animals who don't sit in burrows but rather sit on trees... or at least some time ago we sat on trees. Space means safety to us. Its the same innate response for inside mind by the same faculty in your mind.

And yes, it is fabrication. Why would there even be any space in mind? That makes no sense!
Experience of space completely redundant and should it be gone you wouldn't miss it because it is needed for part of the mind that is reacting to lack of space and that mind would be gone too if it didn't have anything to react to.

At least I don't miss it when it doesn't happen which it usually doesn't. It some times happen but I usually don't mind it and just keep it on. Maybe if I am like practicing I might use it as practice target to e.g. do cessation of.
Andrew S, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 12:47 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 12:34 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 34 Join Date: 1/9/24 Recent Posts
Thanks shargrol.
The big questions are: do you think you have the right understanding to be able to meet this challenge? Do you have the right psychological resilience to be able to meet this challenge? And do you have a dependable support group to help you if things go badly?

Unfortunately It's a definite no to all of these. I should probably stop reading into this and take a break from meditation. However, I can't really unsee it. It's like opening Pandora's box I think. Every time I look at any space or spaciousness, I get a sense that it's being constructed by my mind. This makes the world seem very small. Like everything is right in front of me. I don't really think this is right either. I kind of want something to latch onto to keep myself sane, like some kind of ground, but apparently existence is groundless... ​​​​​​​Is there anything that can snap me out of this state?
Is experience supposed to feel claustrophobic like everything is literally right in front of you?
Andrew S, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 12:54 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 12:53 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 34 Join Date: 1/9/24 Recent Posts
Experience of space completely redundant and should it be gone you wouldn't miss it because it is needed for part of the mind that is reacting to lack of space and that mind would be gone too if it didn't have anything to react to.
are you saying there is no space but no lack of space either?
Todo, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 3:58 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 3:58 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 189 Join Date: 8/20/18 Recent Posts
Space itself is known & accepted..
Freaking sensations are also known & accepted..
This Cognizing faculty welcomes anything & everything. Realizing that moment to moment is where true liberation is to be found. 
Andrew S, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 5:50 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 5:50 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 34 Join Date: 1/9/24 Recent Posts
Update: Ok im slightly less freaked out now. Hopefully I stay this way. I think I can see where I've gone wrong. When I noticed the sensations of space there is a sense that they are 'over there' which can be seen through. I think my mind mistook the idea that the sensations are not actually far away to mean that they are right in front of my perception. Of course the 'right in front of me' was also a fabrication (I think, correct me if im wrong)

When I notice a far away object there is the sensation of distance as well as the sensations of the object having the feeling of being far away as well a sense of self that it is far away from. Its really weird though, where exactly are the sensations of a far away object? they seem to arise but its neither close nor  far since close and far are both qualities of sensations. But where exactly do they arise? is there even a location?
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Jim Smith, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 9:02 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 9:02 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 1767 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Andrew S

...

The notion of everything being fabricated is really freaking me out. In particular, the idea that space, time and awareness are fabricated just made of sensations. I understand that there is a sense of distance in my mind when I am looking at something far away and that is probably some kind of sensation and I can kind of see the fabrication going on.

...



I'm not sure if this will help, but if it's true and you don't realize it, then realizing it won't make it any more true, realizing it won't really change that much. 

It's like if scientists discovered the law of gravity was wrong, we wouldn't start floating off the ground just because their ideas changed.
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Dream Walker, modified 2 Months ago at 5/13/24 9:01 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/13/24 9:01 AM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 1759 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Andrew S
I've been reading into emptiness while doing a mild meditation practice.
I think I'm still in the dark night so this is probably why I'm freaked out about everything.
The notion of everything being fabricated is really freaking me out.
In particular, the idea that space, time and awareness are fabricated just made of sensations.
I understand that there is a sense of distance in my mind when I am looking at something far away and that is probably some kind of sensation and I can kind of see the fabrication going on.
However, the space of awareness is far more difficult to wrap my head around.
I notice sensations coming and going but there must be a space in which these sensations arise and pass?
It seems so obvious that sensations occur in different places which implies some kind of space.
Or does it? One of the things that really help me ​​​get through the dark night is by noticing the spaciousness where sensations arise.
I can kind of tap into this vast, still spaciousness and rest there for a bit which helps.
But apparently this is some kind of illusion?
​​Apparently this is supposed to be freeing but I feel more claustrophobic now.
I feel like I must be getting something wrong or looking at it the wrong way.
Can anyone clarify this for me? ​​​​​​ ​​
Where does delusion go when its gone? Shrug. Where it used to be is empty maybe? Delete something from your computer, gone is empty....no big deal
Wiki how vision works.....there are many steps involved to fabricate the end result in your brain. No big deal.
Entanglement of sensations with other processes creates a sense of self...no big deal
Deleting the ME making processes that are not needed...No big deal
Step by step things get better. Until you experience it directly, don't worry about it.
​​​​​​​
You are jumping ahead to third pathy stuff in your 'readings'. Are you getting to the 5th jhana? Forget about space, awareness, etc until it is the next thing to have fun exploring.
No big deal.

Good luck,
~D
Andrew S, modified 2 Months ago at 5/13/24 8:45 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/13/24 8:45 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 34 Join Date: 1/9/24 Recent Posts
​​​​​You are jumping ahead to third pathy stuff in your 'readings'. Are you getting to the 5th jhana?
I can barely make it to the first... XD
kettu, modified 2 Months ago at 5/14/24 1:21 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/14/24 1:21 AM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 51 Join Date: 10/31/17 Recent Posts
I seems that if you are not already doing so, you would do well to combine meditation with psychological inner work, psychotherapy or such. Recommended reading, for example, would be Bruce Tifts Already Free, which opens his ways of working with his clients in both psychotherapy and meditation. It was recommended by shargrol here some time ago, and I for one have found it mostly very helpful and practical.
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Chris Protheroe, modified 1 Month ago at 5/20/24 5:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/20/24 5:21 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 10 Join Date: 12/16/22 Recent Posts
Reality is boundless… this is the sense of spaciousness that can be recognised when we rest in awareness. It’s not that this spaciousness is 3-dimensional, but because reality has no perceivable edges, no boundaries or borders, and importantly, no centre point either. The mind projects a 3-dimensional appearance of reality with reference points and solid objects with borders and boundaries, and a ‘me’ at the centre. Without the ‘me’ at the centre, or appearance of objects, there is no sense of restriction. I feel you are trying to reduce reality down to a point, as if all sensate experience occurs at this point. A point is one-dimensional, which is extremely restrictive. Absolute reality is zero-dimensional, i.e. is empty of dimension, without centre point or edge, and therefore nothing that can restrict. Your experience of spaciousness that you go to in your dark nights is not illusory, it is your actual experience. It’s just that this sense of spaciousness from the perspective of absolute reality doesn’t come from our 3-dimensional projection of things. Direct experience of reality feels extremely intimate, yet with the quality of boundless spaciousness.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 9:33 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 9:23 AM

Thread Split

Posts: 5331 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I've split this thread to preserve the original content and allow for further cogent discussion of that topic.

The moved portion of this thread was more or less a thrash, and LifeRay seems to have split it into at least three separate pieces. I've locked those straggling threads so you can read them if you want, but they can no longer be posted on.

Sorry for the messy split.

- Chris M
DhO Moderator
Andrew S, modified 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 8:32 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 8:31 PM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Posts: 34 Join Date: 1/9/24 Recent Posts
wow, I haven't been on dho for like a week and saw 68 notifications on my post. I see some drama has popped off lol.
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 5/24/24 5:42 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/24/24 5:42 AM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

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