Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/5/12 11:01 AM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Fitter Stoke 12/5/12 11:34 AM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/5/12 12:49 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eran G 12/5/12 12:45 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/5/12 12:51 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eran G 12/5/12 6:59 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eric B 12/6/12 2:56 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eran G 12/6/12 3:53 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eric B 12/6/12 6:01 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Ian And 12/5/12 1:24 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/5/12 1:33 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Professional Idiot 12/5/12 5:16 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Fitter Stoke 12/5/12 7:36 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/6/12 11:45 AM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eran G 12/6/12 4:04 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bailey . 12/6/12 8:07 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/7/12 3:03 AM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eric B 12/7/12 8:32 AM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/7/12 3:28 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eric B 12/8/12 10:05 AM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/8/12 2:30 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Eric B 12/8/12 6:06 PM
RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options? Bagpuss The Gnome 12/9/12 2:50 AM
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 11:01 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 10:51 AM

Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Hi everyone,

I hope I might get you to help me come up with some structure to my practice. I am finally doing what i've been talking about doing for ages and stopping the U Ba Khin practice for good. There are lots of reasons for this, but I won't bore your pants off with them emoticon

Jhana
My goal is to attain stream entry of course. And I want to take the Jhana route to this goal. I'm very much of the school of thought that the Buddha taught jhana, right concentration as a necessary component required for awakening and I would like to practice in that way. The problem is, I don't have a teacher, or set of specific teachings to follow (though I have collected much information in general on the subject). I realise I could trawl through the Majjhima Nikaya but that really isn't feasible. I would have no time left to practice emoticon

I do not want to follow the TWIM folks. I just can't figure out how they have arrived at such an interpretation of MN118, nice folks though they truly are. And I'm not certain if following MCTB (aggressively looking into the 3C's) will really fit with such practice.

Maybe it's enough to use the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati sutta to try and really cover all 4 bases of mindfulness when in the 4th jhana?

One thing is for sure. I don't want to just "hope" im doing it right. If there were some school of budhism or teacher (maybe Thanissaro Bhikkhu, though Im not sure if he talks much about actual stream entry), where I could get some direction that's be really good.

Just looking for some suggestions...

thanks!

Edited for clumsier than usual wordage..
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Fitter Stoke, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 11:34 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 11:34 AM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:
Hi everyone,

I hope I might get you to help me come up with some structure to my practice. I am finally doing what i've been talking about doing for ages and stopping the U Ba Khin practice for good. There are lots of reasons for this, but I won't bore your pants off with them emoticon

Jhana
My goal is to attain stream entry of course. And I want to take the Jhana route to this goal. I'm very much of the school of thought that the Buddha taught jhana, right concentration as a necessary component required for awakening and I would like to practice in that way. The problem is, I don't have a teacher, or set of specific teachings to follow (though I have collected much information in general on the subject). I realise I could trawl through the Majjhima Nikaya but that really isn't feasible. I would have no time left to practice emoticon

I do not want to follow the TWIM folks. I just can't figure out how they have arrived at such an interpretation of MN118, nice folks though they truly are. And I'm not certain if following MCTB (aggressively looking into the 3C's) will really fit with such practice.

Maybe it's enough to use the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati sutta to try and really cover all 4 bases of mindfulness when in the 4th jhana?

One thing is for sure. I don't want to just "hope" im doing it right. If there were some school of budhism or teacher (maybe Thanissaro Bhikkhu, though Im not sure if he talks much about actual stream entry), where I could get some direction that's be really good.

Just looking for some suggestions...

thanks!

Edited for clumsier than usual wordage..


If you're already hitting 4th jhana, you don't really have any problem. Just hang out there and do some gentle investigation until the moment happens.

You might try some self-inquiry up there. I got path right after bringing that into my practice up in the 11th ñana/4th jhana.

It's interesting. I just went through my meditation journal, because I wanted to show you exactly what I was doing when I got path. I thought I was doing self-inquiry up in 4th jhana, but it looks like I was just noting. Here it is:

Immediately felt detached as soon as I started. I’d notice a sensation, and my thought was immediately behind it to note it. It was like watching one bird fly past and then another bird chase it. Throbbing, burning, and tingling began to predominate, and I followed these sensations around the body with ease. I still felt detached, but I wasn’t bothered by it for long, and pretty soon I was just enjoying the ability to chase my sensations around. I was enjoy the cool breeze and the light of the sun and just enjoying being alive.

As soon as I sat, though, I was half-asleep. There were lots of mental images, as though I were half-dreaming. Noting was still there, but it was taking a lot of work. Annoyance started creeping in as I felt my equilibrium go off as I’d start falling asleep. Anger started up, and I had to keep widening the circle of acceptance to encompass not only the wobbliness and dream images but also the irritation and anger at having to endure this. I really wanted to give up, because I was feeling lousy, but I just kept noting and reminding myself that I go through this every time.

This probably went on for about 20 or 30 minutes. And then pretty much out of nowhere - while my mind was trailing off listening to some people outside - there was a POP. It’s like someone hit me with jumper cables. There was a shock to the middle of my chest, and flash in the center of my vision, and my entire visual field was bright behind me eyes. I sat bolt-upright and was suddenly very awake and noting like a champ again.


Anyway, the principle is pretty much the same. Don't push on it too hard. I'm tempted to say "look into this and that", but really, I think it will happen on its own.
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Eran G, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 12:45 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 12:45 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent Posts
Try this book on Anapanasati by Ajahn Buddhadasa - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf

If you find this interesting, you may want to contact or sit a retreat with Santikaro - http://liberationpark.org/ he was an abbot in Buddhadasa's lineage and translated at least one of his books. He now teaches in the US and leads retreats several times a year. I sat a 9 day retreat with Santikaro a couple of years ago and found it very helpful.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 12:49 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 12:49 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
That's very encouraging Fitter, thanks! That drifting off thing is somehting I've heard people mention before. I think Daniel mentions it in MCTB. It's often hard not to drift off a bit in 4th.. I have taken to trying to include as much as possible in my awareness at this stage. Mostly this helps.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 12:51 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 12:51 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Eran G:
Try this book on Anapanasati by Ajahn Buddhadasa - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf

If you find this interesting, you may want to contact or sit a retreat with Santikaro - http://liberationpark.org/ he was an abbot in Buddhadasa's lineage and translated at least one of his books. He now teaches in the US and leads retreats several times a year. I sat a 9 day retreat with Santikaro a couple of years ago and found it very helpful.


Hey Eran, good to see you! I have that book, it's fantastic! emoticon

I should have mentioned. I can't feasibly travel to the US or much further than say France/Germany as I'm in the UK...
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 1:24 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 1:24 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
What is this "TWIM folks" that you refer to?
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 1:33 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 1:33 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Ian And:
What is this "TWIM folks" that you refer to?


That would be Bhante Vimalaramsi and Sister Khema at Dhamma Sukkha
Professional Idiot, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 5:16 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 5:16 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 23 Join Date: 5/15/11 Recent Posts
Hi Bagpuss,

I believe i'm in a similar(ish) position to you, though not quite as far down the line.

I've been doing a bit of research and like the sound of these retreat centres:

1) satipanya

2) dhammacari

I've also been quite taken by these guys and the prospect of becoming an apprentice

http://arobuddhism.org/

Hope this helps!
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Eran G, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 6:59 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 6:59 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent Posts
In that case, I recommend pretty much what Fitter said above. Get into whatever level of samadhi you have available and start investigating. You can use the form of investigation that Ajahn Buddhadasa describes in his books; having a certain structure to you investigation may keep you from drifting off. You can use the abridged version of the investigation which basically focuses on the 4th part of the Anapanasati sutta. For me that took the form of looking very clearly for the arising and passing of sensations. I did not find it necessary to label sensations (although, again, that may help keep you on track) and I did not find it necessary to notice every single sensation that arises (at least not initially, things speed up at times and slow down at other times). Willingness to experiment and find what works for you is essential. You have a lot of support available here and a sharp mind. What more can you ask for? emoticon
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Fitter Stoke, modified 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 7:36 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/5/12 7:36 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Aro is very cool, but I wouldn't bother looking at other traditions right now. I wouldn't even worry about a retreat (though if you can do one right now, that's cool).

I would keep doing what you're doing. If you've gotten up to 4th, you've mastered something. Go with what you know, and practice it every day as intensively as you can.

Check out this thread here. It sounds like Jake was doing something similar to what you're doing. Daniel gave him advice, and he got path within a month, IIRC.

Good luck, and let us know what happens.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 11:45 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 11:45 AM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Sami Mandeel:
Hi Bagpuss,

I believe i'm in a similar(ish) position to you, though not quite as far down the line.

I've been doing a bit of research and like the sound of these retreat centres:

1) satipanya

2) dhammacari

I've also been quite taken by these guys and the prospect of becoming an apprentice

http://arobuddhism.org/

Hope this helps!


Hi Sami, thanks! As far as I know though those are both Mahasi centres... I'll check out the Aro thing though, cheers.

Eran G:
In that case, I recommend pretty much what Fitter said above. Get into whatever level of samadhi you have available and start investigating. You can use the form of investigation that Ajahn Buddhadasa describes in his books; having a certain structure to you investigation may keep you from drifting off. You can use the abridged version of the investigation which basically focuses on the 4th part of the Anapanasati sutta. For me that took the form of looking very clearly for the arising and passing of sensations. I did not find it necessary to label sensations (although, again, that may help keep you on track) and I did not find it necessary to notice every single sensation that arises (at least not initially, things speed up at times and slow down at other times). Willingness to experiment and find what works for you is essential. You have a lot of support available here and a sharp mind. What more can you ask for? emoticon


Sound advice Eran, thanks. I'll reread the Buddhadasa book, or at least that particular section. As to sensations though, because of my Goenka training my whole body is just a mass of tingling sensations most of the time, but particularly when i sit. I can do as you suggest for sure, but there are bazillions of sensations with the occasional isolated grosser sensations. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Fitter Stoke:
Aro is very cool, but I wouldn't bother looking at other traditions right now. I wouldn't even worry about a retreat (though if you can do one right now, that's cool).

I would keep doing what you're doing. If you've gotten up to 4th, you've mastered something. Go with what you know, and practice it every day as intensively as you can.

Check out this thread here. It sounds like Jake was doing something similar to what you're doing. Daniel gave him advice, and he got path within a month, IIRC.

Good luck, and let us know what happens.


I have 15 days booked in March, but I agree (now..) on traditions.. it seems I'm best off doing as you suggest. I'll keep digging this hole I've been digging for some time now emoticon
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Eric B, modified 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 2:56 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 2:56 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Eran G:
Try this book on Anapanasati by Ajahn Buddhadasa - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf

If you find this interesting, you may want to contact or sit a retreat with Santikaro - http://liberationpark.org/ he was an abbot in Buddhadasa's lineage and translated at least one of his books. He now teaches in the US and leads retreats several times a year. I sat a 9 day retreat with Santikaro a couple of years ago and found it very helpful.


Eran,

This book always seem chopped off at the end, leaving the last tetrad incomplete. I'd always wondered about this. Following your link to Santikaro's website, he confirms that it is incomplete. What is there is great stuff though.

Eric
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Eran G, modified 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 3:53 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 3:53 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent Posts
That's a shame! I've only used that book as a reference for specific bits and have never read it completely. There's Mindfulness of breathing: a manual for serious beginners that is also pretty good, though a little short. http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Breathing-Manual-Serious-Beginners/dp/0861711114/

Did Santikaro have other recommendations?
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Eran G, modified 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 4:04 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 4:04 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:

Eran G:
In that case, I recommend pretty much what Fitter said above. Get into whatever level of samadhi you have available and start investigating. You can use the form of investigation that Ajahn Buddhadasa describes in his books; having a certain structure to you investigation may keep you from drifting off. You can use the abridged version of the investigation which basically focuses on the 4th part of the Anapanasati sutta. For me that took the form of looking very clearly for the arising and passing of sensations. I did not find it necessary to label sensations (although, again, that may help keep you on track) and I did not find it necessary to notice every single sensation that arises (at least not initially, things speed up at times and slow down at other times). Willingness to experiment and find what works for you is essential. You have a lot of support available here and a sharp mind. What more can you ask for? emoticon


Sound advice Eran, thanks. I'll reread the Buddhadasa book, or at least that particular section. As to sensations though, because of my Goenka training my whole body is just a mass of tingling sensations most of the time, but particularly when i sit. I can do as you suggest for sure, but there are bazillions of sensations with the occasional isolated grosser sensations. Do you have any thoughts on that?


I can see two ways to go with that (and obviously there are more):
1. Do what I did at the time, and just start with the breath. Once samadhi is established, turn attention to the breath and notice the arising and passing of each breath. No need to stay too forceful with that. Once noticing the moments of arising and passing is easier you can start to bring in more sensations and expand your attention if that feels right.

2. Open awareness, very much like noting. Just notice the arising and passing of whatever sensation is the most prominent at the moment and then move to the next one.

Try it both ways and see what feels more natural. If that changes with time, let it change. If you wanna blend the two methods, do that. Trust your intuition. You can always try it some other way if you try something and it doesn't work.
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Eric B, modified 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 6:01 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 6:01 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Eran G:

Did Santikaro have other recommendations?


It was on a page listing all of Buddhadasa's available books (including the serious beginners one). There is another page there with various recomended readings, none of which struck me as new or different.
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Bailey , modified 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 8:07 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/6/12 8:07 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Maybe it's enough to use the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati sutta to try and really cover all 4 bases of mindfulness when in the 4th jhana?


You are meant to choose only one of the four bases and focus on that. What is wrong with entering into the 4th Jhana and practicing Goenka's method? Body sensations are one of the four foundations of mindfulness.


-d
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/7/12 3:03 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/7/12 3:03 AM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Well that's a good point Blue.

Currently I am doing just this. But rather than actively scanning/sweeping the body I am simply watching the vibrations across the whole body as it fades in and out of perception. Last night I focused very intently (counter to the gentle investigation suggested above) on the characteristic of impermanence in the fast vibrations. This felt a bit edgy, but possibly the right track nonetheless. I just need to work at doing it with a little less intensity perhaps.

I could not find a searchable reference to this but Analayo in his book "Satipatthana, the Direct Path to Realisation" talks about the analogy of the pile of dust at the crossroads. That a chariot could level the dust by driving though it by any of the 4 directions, but that a more thorough job would be done (in faster time) by 4 chariots from 4 directions.

To this end (and, as it happens per U Ba Khin's own instructions) I am also including mind states / sensations in this practice when appropriate. Firstly it helps guard the mind against wandering, but it is also an excellent use of excess processing power it would seem. I like to also include sounds arising and passing away as it can be a bit noisy where I am.

I don't intend to throw the baby out with the bathwater as I move away from the U Ba Khin tradition. I've spent nearly 2 years on body sensations and the body as a whole. I'm just changing the technique for working with those frames of reference.

Cheers,
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Eric B, modified 12 Years ago at 12/7/12 8:32 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/7/12 8:32 AM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:


Currently I am doing just this. But rather than actively scanning/sweeping the body I am simply watching the vibrations across the whole body as it fades in and out of perception. Last night I focused very intently (counter to the gentle investigation suggested above) on the characteristic of impermanence in the fast vibrations. This felt a bit edgy, but possibly the right track nonetheless. I just need to work at doing it with a little less intensity perhaps.

,


BTG, I should keep this in mind. For the past couple of weeks most of my sits have degenerated into coarse body-wide piti that I inevitably feel aversion to.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/7/12 3:28 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/7/12 3:28 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
I will indeed beware of that Eric, thanks.

Can you describe this piti in detail please?
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Eric B, modified 11 Years ago at 12/8/12 10:05 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/8/12 10:05 AM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:


Can you describe this piti in detail please?


It's like the jhana factor piti, but more intense. It's felt througout the body like a buzzing. It become grating and any pleasant vedana becomes unpleasant vedana.

Somtimes it's palpably more intense in the hands and I get the urge to uncurl my fingers and stick them straight out.

Sometimes I can get past this by dispersing the attention to the whole body. Last night I was listening to a Than Geoff talk and he recommended trying to see through it to a more subtle energy that you know is underlieing it. I haven't tried this yet, but will next time it comes up.

Other times I feel it move along the skull from the jaw to the 3rd eye area, where it sinks in and fades. When this happens it tends to come in sucessive waves one after the other. This is what I have been calling the "energy surge". When this has happened, I've never gotten past it; either the bell goes off or I get up and turn off the timer.

Stuff like this used to come up every few weeks, last maybe a day or two then go away. For the past month though, it has been more the rukle than the exception.

Yester day I was poking around over at dhammatalk.org, and downloaded theses talks by Than Geoff which I think are apropos to what's being discussed here in this thread. One of them contains the suggerstion I cited above, but now I don't remember precisely which one.

Tranquility & Insight in Tandem (14:50)
Stilling Mental Fabrication (14:28)
Feeding on the Breath (10:59)
Concentration through Samvega (11:00)
Right Resolve, Right Concentration (12:44)
Breath Energies (14:42)
Insight from Jhana (20:12)
Do Jhana (13:52)

These are all from the past few months. I need to go over there are look around more often. Also, thanks for pointing out "Rigth Mindfulness" in your other thread.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 12/8/12 2:30 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/8/12 2:30 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Hmmm interesting stuff Eric. I would definitely recommend working with it rather than against it. Could these harsh vibrations be the 3rd vipassana jhana / DN in an unfamiliar form? Recently my DN has been taking one or other of two basic forms:

1. My jhana is so strong (due to momentum from starting the sit pre or during A&P that I barely feel it or,
2. The pleasure is uncomfortably strong and very "edgy".

In the second instance I have learned to relax into it and let it be whatever it wants to be. It's hard because that amount of "pleasure" is not pleasurable. It's a bit scary really, but it's quite doable. And, it beats the shit out of the vice-like grip of a pounding headache without the jhana emoticon

I can't wait to dive into those Thanissaro talks! Thanks. I just wish I could get Right Mindfulness (and other ebooks) in a regular printed form. He's got more than enough material there to make a really good print book. I am near blind so have to get the mac to read the PDF to me which sucks. I may have to get a printer to make me a book of it as it really is very good indeed!

Cheers Eric,
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Eric B, modified 11 Years ago at 12/8/12 6:06 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/8/12 6:06 PM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:
Hmmm interesting stuff Eric. I would definitely recommend working with it rather than against it. Could these harsh vibrations be the 3rd vipassana jhana / DN in an unfamiliar form?


I had been thinking along those lines, with "unfamiliar" being the key thing. My on the cushion dukha nana crap had always been rather surfacy and not all that hard to get through. With what's been going on, I don't always get into the first jhana, not always to the second when I get to the first, seldom to the third when I get to second and never to the fourth, which does point to teh 3rd vipassna jhana. You're right about my working with it rather than against it. Thanks BTG.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 12/9/12 2:50 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/9/12 2:50 AM

RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Right. Just one more thing then: In the 3rd jhana in particular I've found it sometimes helpful to focus on a pleasurable sensation that comes about with some focus on an area just below the naval. It should feel like surrendering deeply into something. A little unfamiliar and perhaps uncomfortable at first, for me there seems to be a lot of tension there and it can be hard to deeply relax it. It can feel similar to if you were to just drop your bowels right there, but it's not quite the same fortunately! That pleasure often spreads across the behind and down each leg, like it's all a big branching nerve.

This odd experience may be related to other leg/naval sensations I'll talk about when I get another practice thread up. It's certainly worth exploring though.

The other thing is this: when those harsh vibrations are coming on good and strong, can you relax into them and experience them really really fully? I hope you'll find that if you do that they will speed up and get finer, losing their DN aspect.

Good luck