Repeating Fruition

Ryan, modified 5 Years ago at 2/21/19 10:04 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/21/19 10:04 PM

Repeating Fruition

Posts: 76 Join Date: 2/21/19 Recent Posts
I have a question for those who are able to repeat the fruition experience at will: How do you do that? In other words, what specifically do you incline your mind towards and can you describe the experience of what unfolds? 
While it may be waaay off, my current understanding is that the process is something like the following:
  • Select an object (any object will do) and ignore the mental 'echo'
  • Sort of zoom in on the bare sensate experience of the object
  • Try to discern finer and finer details of the object (both temporally and spatially)
  • When the sense percepts begin to take on the 'vibratory' quality, focus in still further on that until the space between the vibrations expands and consumes everything
  • BAM! -Nibbana-

Is that off-base??
Incandescent Flower, modified 5 Years ago at 2/22/19 4:50 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/22/19 4:49 PM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 87 Join Date: 10/27/14 Recent Posts
Have you tried focusing on the 3cs once you get to high eq/vibratory territory? Just pick one and stick with it to the exclusion of all else until it pops?

Also, I sometimes find it useful to simply "allow" the thing to be done. Like giving myself permission with a loving, appreciative attitude and heart.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 5 Years ago at 2/22/19 8:28 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/22/19 8:28 PM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 3274 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
What you describe (focused, effortful, directed work on a object) is a very first vipassana jhanic way of working and not likely to be as helpful as some other approaches, though it is true that some can manage to get something like that to work if their practice is otherwise strong and they can widen out a bit and relax.

Getting repeat Fruitions: I personally have found that just sitting down, doing nothing except perhaps being a bit mindful in a wide-open open and largely agenda-free way, and letting the stages of insight roll through in their own time until a Fruition occurred has been best. If you wish, and if you have actually already had a Fruition and not one of the much more common mimics (A&P, Dissolution, Equanimity, Formless Something, etc.), you can gently incline the mind in that direction or towards that idea at the very beginning of the sit and then just forget about it. It has something to do with the synchrony of the illusion of attention/attender with fluxing space and whatever is happening as a part of that fluxing space.

Best wishes,

Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Years ago at 2/24/19 8:04 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/24/19 7:28 AM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
When repeating fruitions, can it be through a different door than the first time?

Or can it be confusing because another sense gate makes the experience differ?
Keshin lu, modified 5 Years ago at 2/24/19 8:51 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/24/19 8:51 AM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 34 Join Date: 7/31/18 Recent Posts
I relax just like any meditation session and the mind naturally expand. I then surf the bliss and ecstasy . Then things quite down and the energy gathered. Then consciousness goes out like a flame. It’s all natural, one condition leading to the next.
T DC, modified 5 Years ago at 2/24/19 12:52 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/24/19 12:52 PM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 516 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
I posted this on r/streamentry, but here it is again.

There is definitely a method to experience repeated fruitions, if one is post stream entry (first path). The best way to do this in my experience is to practice moving through the cycle of insight all the way up to equanimity, and then hang out in equanimity. If you have attained first path, it should not be too difficult to pop a fruition from a stable state of equanimity. It is helpful to work through the cycle to that point in order to really set the stage and go deeper into equanimity versus just trying to go right into it.

The idea here is that at first path we have mastered an entire cycle of insight, up to the fruition, and can now access it at will. What you're describing sound like intensive vipassana, which is a great technique, but in isolation is unlikely to lead to controlled, repeat fruitions. Similarly, setting an intention is great in that it really unifies the mind in a certain direction, but whether you experience a fruition after that may be somewhat random. Kind of like driving to a destination, setting a strong intention to get there will likely be much less successful than relying on a good map. The cycle of insight is basically your map to the fruition experience.
Nikolai , modified 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 12:06 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 12:06 AM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
My set up

Make a resolution to experience fruition within a timeframe, for me it’s 10 seconds, for you maybe longer, who knows? Experiment. 
After resolving, relax, forget about the resolution, let go, pay attention to impermanence or impersonal nature of phenomena and let whatever happen, happen. See what happens after timeframe. Experiment!

neko, modified 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 5:53 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 5:52 AM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 763 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Just wanted to point out that people seem to be answering two different questions here:

Question 1: I have already "experienced" fruition at least once before, how do I "get" more cessations? Sometimes referred to as fruition vs. cessation. Some people call path-level blips fruitions because they bring with them the fruit of a new path (magga-phala), and non-path-level blips cessations; confusingly, some people seem to do the other way around, or use the two terms interchangeably.

Question 2: I have just experienced a cessation a few seconds ago, how do I get another cessation back-to-back in the next few seconds or minutes? Usually referred to as repeat cessation, or repeat fruition.

I believe Ryan is asking Question 1, but it seems that some people are answering Question 2.

Either way, just wanted to point out that those are two distinct skills, and that perhaps we could establish a common language. Daniel, what do you think? I am hijacking the topic a bit, apologies to OP.
Ryan, modified 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 8:35 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 8:35 AM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 76 Join Date: 2/21/19 Recent Posts
Would it be fair to say then that repeating the fruition experience is more a matter of inclining the mind towards the natural cycling phenomenon rather than a particular technique? If so, it would seem that could be done without too much difficulty off-cushion as well. Is that your experiance? 
Ryan, modified 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 12:24 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 12:24 PM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 76 Join Date: 2/21/19 Recent Posts
neko -

No apologies needed, as this is very much on topic. I was asking something along the lines of first question you pointed out. Just as some background of the question, it came to me in the context of getting a handle on how this might work for those post stream entry, both out of curiosity and as a potential diagnostic tool. In my thinking, not being able to repeat cessations/fruition wouldn't necessarily disprove stream entry, but the ability to do it would be a strong indication for that level of attainment; a sufficient but not necessary sign of SE basically. 

I definitely agree on your last point, we do need a more universal and comprehensive way to describe these things, preferably a single one that would be useful across the various traditions. Despite all the great work that Daniel and others have done to demystify this stuff and ground in the actual experience of practitioners, we still spend a lot of time comparing notes and generally being unable to decide what, if anything, can be said to be, for everyone, unequivocally true about the path. Much work remains to be done, though I don't pretend to know how to solve it. 
neko, modified 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 4:15 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/27/19 4:12 PM

RE: Repeating Fruition

Posts: 763 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Hi Ryan, by Daniel's standards the ability to work up to cessations reliably is possible for some people after MCTB 1st path, and expected by the time they get to MCTB 2nd path.

Oh, btw, there is a third skill, which I have heard referred to as "calling up cessations" at will, with very little setup, within seconds to maybe a minute. This would be something different from question 1 above, for which a setup of up to an hour on average would be common and acceptable. I have been able to do (1) for a few years now, managed to do (2) on my most recent retreat on a few occasions, and was never able to do (3). I would be a bit surprised if someone can do (3) without being able to do (2), but then there's a range of natural inclinations in these matters.

Yet another skill, which might be somewhere around (1) and (2) and I am tempted to call "1.5" for this reason, is the ability to correct for a missed cessation. Occasionally after being able to do (1) you will notice that your mind is getting really close to cessation, the setup seems correct and all... and then nothing happens. Or maybe I should say nothing does not happen. Skill (1.5) would consist in correcting for a missed cessation by inclining your mind back to get whatever piece of the puzzle was lacking, which is what then induces the missed cessation. Nowhere as spectacular as the other three skills, but given how frustrating a missed cessation can be, it is still a nice trick to have up your sleeve at some point.