Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/7/11 12:12 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Bruno Loff 7/7/11 8:22 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/7/11 12:47 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/7/11 3:54 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Yadid dee 7/8/11 8:01 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Florian 7/8/11 9:12 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Yadid dee 7/8/11 9:24 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Florian 7/8/11 9:40 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Yadid dee 7/8/11 9:42 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/8/11 7:36 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/8/11 7:50 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/8/11 7:58 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/8/11 8:10 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/8/11 9:13 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Yadid dee 7/9/11 5:28 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Yadid dee 7/9/11 6:29 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing upa saka 7/9/11 8:38 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/9/11 8:41 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing upa saka 7/12/11 7:55 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/9/11 11:14 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/9/11 10:06 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Yadid dee 7/9/11 10:19 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing upa saka 7/9/11 10:45 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Elena Joy 7/8/11 11:49 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/9/11 11:12 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Elena Joy 7/9/11 11:14 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/9/11 11:21 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Elena Joy 7/9/11 11:41 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Elena Joy 7/9/11 11:20 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/9/11 11:33 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Elena Joy 7/9/11 11:38 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/9/11 11:47 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/9/11 3:41 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/9/11 4:57 PM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing faB 7/10/11 9:37 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/10/11 9:45 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Elena Joy 7/10/11 4:08 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Elena Joy 7/10/11 4:03 AM
RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing Nikolai . 7/10/11 9:52 AM
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 12:12 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 7:53 AM

Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/10/11 Recent Posts
Hey all,

I found the Hardcore Direct Pointing thread very thought provoking and interesting. I was often attracted to the idea, the idea that it is simply there, facing us all the time. It's a very pleasant idea, very tempting.

But there is this belief that consumes me, that I can't seem to shake off. It stops me from fully engaging with the process of enquiry, it and it goes like this:

EVERY SINGLE TIME I read the story of someone enlightened, whether a spiritual teacher, or someone who claimed to have "seen", and posts here or elsewhere that seem genuine; EVERY SINGLE TIME without fail, you can see that they have been through some preparatory work.

Usually it is drugs (LSD, mushrooms, Ayahuasca etc), often it is some kind of special, out of the ordinary experience in the childhood or younger years. And of course, there are all the spiritual seekers, who have sat for years upon years.

And the ultimate HYPOCRISY is that almost all of them, then go on saying that all the work was unnecessary. That they just didn't know where to look. It seems as if, upon awakening, one has lost the ability to communicate effectively. One doesn't know where to look; and then it happens on its own, and then one doesn't know how to tell others. This may be a language problem, as Alan Watts pointed out, that our minds are too simple. But surely language can adequately convey that WORK must be done, LOTS of it. That it doesn't happen just like that, certainly not for anyone one willing to be seriously looking for a couple weeks or so. Language can convey that. Language is enough to convey truth instead of hypocrisy and the lies.

What's the point of this post? Well I genuinely am desperate for someone to shatter this belief. I can't seem to shake it off. It could be disproved simply through logic, because it is simply an observation, not a "realization".

Do you know anyone "awake" (seen that there is no "self") who has genuinely NEVER been through any special kind of experience, who has NEVER taken any sorts of drugs, who has NEVER done any serious amount of meditation?

Of course now I could turn this all over and say, but look Fabrice... you're being silly... it is "I" who wants to believe this. It is "I" who is putting away the work of looking, holding onto this belief.

Really? Is it really that stupid? That simple? "I" don't believe it, because I also want to see TRUTH as it really is. And the real, absolute TRUTH that I am seeing, is that without fail, every single story of awakened person I have read involves some type of special experiences, drugs, or many years of meditation.

And you might say, "what does it matter", "get started now or you'll never get there". True, it may be a philosophical argument, mental masturbation. But I also want to point out a flagrant DISHONESTY here on the part of the awakened. Like Jeff Foster. God this guy is annoying. He is like the poster child of useless, pointless so called "teachers". He admitted himself in interviews that he went through a 2-3 years period of seeking, meditation, and then goes on to say all that was not necessary.

There just seems like there is nothing we can do. And for those of us who are already so TIRED of dragging this "me" along, it is very depressing. Very depressing to think, that it just won't happen now or anytime soon. It won't happen by willing it. That I understand. How many more years, how many more tears? emoticon

It's not waiting that bothers me. My passions and will for the most part have fallen down. I'm useless. I have no will to do any of the things I used to enjoy, making computer games, listening to music and so on. Adyashanti says that is the stage, that in this "falling down" is the flowering of this new state of being. GREAT!

And yet at the same time, there is the story of the drunken guys rowing all night. They forgot to untie the rope. We all know these guys on the Vipassana mailing lists, celebrating their 2nd or 3rd year of daily one hour mediation. Some of them have been doing that for ten plus years, even the MCTB book talks about it.

So much doubt. How do you know you're doing the right thing when you can NOT do anything? And not doing anything might just leave you in the same place, twenty years later?

emoticon

Sorry just venting off... sometimes it helps..
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Bruno Loff, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 8:22 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 8:22 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Fabrice D:
He admitted himself in interviews that he went through a 2-3 years period of seeking, meditation, and then goes on to say all that was not necessary.


It's a fallacy. I guess that to him it probably "feels like" it was not necessary. The facts seem to be, that him and everybody (or 99.99%) who got enlightened have had many many years of inner work.

Fabrice D:

There just seems like there is nothing we can do. And for those of us who are already so TIRED of dragging this "me" along, it is very depressing. Very depressing to think, that it just won't happen now or anytime soon. It won't happen by willing it. That I understand. How many more years, how many more tears? emoticon

It's not waiting that bothers me. My passions and will for the most part have fallen down. I'm useless. I have no will to do any of the things I used to enjoy, making computer games, listening to music and so on. Adyashanti says that is the stage, that in this "falling down" is the flowering of this new state of being. GREAT!


This is called "knowledge of disenchantment." Once, during this stage, I decided to go through every desire I had, every dream and scheme that I could conjure in my mind, even fantastic abstract fractal orgasmic kind of stuff, only to realize it was all utterly unsatisfying. There seemed to be no direction to turn to. And then for some reason, precisely because there was no direction to turn to, I might as well enjoy being here, which is where I am anyway. This was the point of the whole experience (or at least that's how I tell the story nowadays).

Dark night -> equanimity.

In the end, it turns out, I can be satisfied with life — but only life as it actually is here and now — it is just my dreams and schemes that are getting in the way.

Keep meditating — have you read Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha?
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 12:47 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 12:35 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/10/11 Recent Posts
Dark night -> equanimity.


Thanks. I see that's probably what I'm going through.

Why sit though? Can I not try to be equanimous with everything, as it arises? I know in practice it's really hard, but I'd rather have a challenge and go on with life than keep on placing my bets in a distant and supposedly happy future.

— have you read Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha?


I've read MCTB. I can see that some of these stages may relate to this experience. I can think of one experience years ago where my fears and anxiety seemed to completely disappear for a few hours. That might have been the beginning of the down fall...

I can accept that, the path, the stages, I have spent some time already lurking here and reading MCTB.

I can accept that I have to surrender. It makes sense. Because nothing else worked anyway. I can see how I could proceed forward with "my" life. Instead of taking a crappy job that requires no motivation, perhaps I could just go and serve long time, not for "sila", not for "good karma", but just because I'm sick and tired of trying to fix things anyway, and I can't muster the passion to build video games or web sites as I used to. Fine.

Keep meditating —


I don't want to sit at home and continue this rat race. It's just a rat race. Telling myself, "someday, I will be liberated. hopefully it will be before I'm 60, so I can actually enjoy some of the years left". Seriously what is the point, other than perhaps entertaining some mystical belief that the work done will benefit a purported consciousness stream in another life or dimension or whatever, which will not even be ME anyway!

I have sat three Goenka retreats, just working on sankharas. Just pain. Things got better, life got better, the mind feels more calm, in general. It worked, and I can see that I could work hard and perhaps following Nikolay's advice, attain 1st path in God knows how many more retreats or years of daily sitting.

Every time I sit, I have doubt. I wonder, with so many techniques out there. Which one is supposed to work? Should I body scan, should I do choiceless awareness, should I do this, do that?... I'm sick and tired of this. Sounds like a lot of balooney to me.

Yes all those techniques work, and some people here may have a jolly good time blissing out in their jhanas but there are people suffering out there. Suffering HARD. They need a workable solution, one that WORKS. One that's scientific and realistic.

That's why I'm interested in direct pointing. In 2001, in the face of a almost paralysing anxiety, out of sheer will I said "I will walk ten steps and do this phone call". After 30 minutes of doing ping pong in my mind, I put a step forward, then each step my mind fully there. And then all the anxiety broke down. I talked to people in the store like I never used to. Everybody could have been my brothers or sisters, there was no sense of higher/lower than me. I was truly happy and hoping it would last. Hoping this was it. Next day I woke up and I knew "*****, it's gone". EDIT: And just to be clear, I only had started reading about meditation and was doing an hour a day at most of counting the breath. My mind was anything but clear, full of fear, full of self consciousness.

But I'm hoping it can be done again; but for good. And perhaps it's not necessary to be experience insane anxiety either. I'm sure by sheer strength of will or intention it can be done. And some stubborness and anger too.

So that's all I'm hoping with this thread is if someone liberated out there, just one person, could help me shatter this belief (in the 1st post) and just say: YES, I was liberated by just looking at my experience honestly, for maybe a couple weeks or a couple months at most. And I didn't sit for years at a time. I didn't have any special visions or experiences with drugs or meditation prior to this awakening. I am not a genius. If I could do it, you can do it.

That's all I would like to hear. Just one person telling the truth, not selling false hopes. Thank you!

Then it will make sense. That so many people try and fail, it will make sense that it takes so many years for some, and some just never get it. It will make sense because then the only possibility left, if direct pointing works for an "average" person with no prior special experiences, is that those who don't get there simply don't understand how to look, or what to look for.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 3:54 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 1:52 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Fabrice D:

So that's all I'm hoping with this thread is if someone liberated out there, just one person, could help me shatter this belief (in the 1st post) and just say: YES, I was liberated by just looking at my experience honestly, for maybe a couple weeks or a couple months at most. And I didn't sit for years at a time. I didn't have any special visions or experiences with drugs or meditation prior to this awakening. I am not a genius. If I could do it, you can do it.

That's all I would like to hear. Just one person telling the truth, not selling false hopes. Thank you!

Then it will make sense. That so many people try and fail, it will make sense that it takes so many years for some, and some just never get it. It will make sense because then the only possibility left, if direct pointing works for an "average" person with no prior special experiences, is that those who don't get there simply don't understand how to look, or what to look for.


Although I sat many courses over 8 years, I never got stream entry. I got good at being eqaunimous and yes, this probably helped in the end. Most probably. I can't write off all the work I did. But the most progressive work I did was on and off sporadically for 2 years before SE, and not truly serious until 6 months or so before my last successful course. This is when I started including within my vipassana practice the investigation of the sense of "self". I write about it here: http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-toolbox-noting-part-1-nicks.html

In these last 6 months, it was the main focus of all my less sporadic sits (maybe 6 hours a week) . My one sole purpose was to see what the hell the sense of "self" was. I know some teachers say don't focus on this sense as it can be a slippery slope, but I did non-stop till it finally made sense and then SE was attained.

In those last 6 months, it was still on and off investigating the phenomena being misread as "self". In the last 2 weeks before the successful course (where SE occurred on day 5), I was sitting 4 hours a day or so looking at the images, the thoughts and sensations that seemed to glomm together to be misread as pertaining to a sense of "self". On day 5 of the course, those sensations, images and thoughts were finally seen to just be sensations, images and thoughts. For a fair number of seconds, the sense of "self" disappeared, and was replaced with actuality; a mass of vibrations. The illusion was seen through for the 1st time finally. Within 10 minutes of this, the first cessation occurred through the dukkha door after seeing the 3 C's in real time in all that mass of sensations. On the course it was the first time ever that I had this mind/body organism revved up tto such a degree to take it all the way, and all the way quickly. All the years of practice behind me helped get to this place, where effort and determination was at its highest. But it was more so becasue of the effort I put into the new investigation, which I had never done before that. How is your effort and determination levels? If they aren't at a level that conditions this type of discernment, then you know what to work on.

Hardcore looking worked in my experience. The noting technique was the pointer. But I am not so sure how hard these RTers are looking, having not asked them if they took it to this level.

Anyone can do it. You just have to look long enough with enough discernment, and investigate long enough for perception to clear up. According to the suttas, many people got SE in an instant after hearing from the most hardcore of pointers, the Buddha's. I guess the listeners at the time had enough discernment to see what he was pointing to quite quickly. Do you? If not, work on honing those discernment skills.

:-)

Nick

Edited to say, you sound like you have a bad case of doubt which is one of the 5 hinderances. Subduing the hindrances is vital in order to look with discernment. Something to keep in mind. Whether your goal is SE, AF or whatever, these hindrances are the main obstacles of any practice.
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Yadid dee, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 8:01 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:59 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Nick:
Hardcore looking worked in my experience. The noting technique was the pointer. But I am not so sure how hard these RTers are looking, having not asked them if they took it to this level.


Hi Nick,

Here's what I'm thinking:
Although you describe 'investigating self', thats the only thing I see in common here, and much more which is different.

According to your report, you weren't just investigating 'self', you were sitting 5 hours a day in formal sitting meditation, and then 12 hours or more on retreat, attaining high jhanic concentration and noticing subtleties of mind and body that are just not seen without this intensity of practice, and after 5 days of doing this for more than 12 hours a day, you got stream-entry.

This, to me, does not seem like 'just look! there's no self', at all :-)
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:12 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:12 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Yadid

This is one of the strangest things about the whole business of awakening. As the path insights arise, it becomes increasingly clear how the practice has nothing to do with the realization of the insights.

On my more cynical days, I think it's simply the following:

[indent]While practicing for some insight goal, the goal doesn't make sense yet (otherwise it would be attained already)

Once the goal is attained, the practice doesn't make sense any more (otherwise the goal wouldn't yet be attained)[/indent]
This is grossly simplified, of course. But that's how it seems to me some of these days. So, while practice makes sense to you, disregard the wisecracker quips about "meditation has nothing to do with realization". You'll see what that is about once you're there.

That said, I'm firmly convinced that it never hurts to have a good, hard look at the sense of self. I think this will help at all stages.

Cheers,
Florian
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Yadid dee, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:24 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:24 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Hi Florian, I didn't quite get the relation between your post and mine.

I don't think Nick was saying that the practice has nothing to do with realization.. on the contrary, he said it took him a lot of practice to get to stream-entry, and beyond.
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:40 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:40 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Yadid,

it was in response to the last line in your post:

Yadid dee:
This, to me, does not seem like 'just look! there's no self', at all :-)


Cheers,
Florian
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Yadid dee, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:42 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:42 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Florian Weps:
Hi Yadid,

it was in response to the last line in your post:

Yadid dee:
This, to me, does not seem like 'just look! there's no self', at all :-)


Cheers,
Florian


Ohh right, I see.

Yeah I was pointing out (ha emoticon that meditating for countless hours on intensive retreat is no laughing matter, and seems to be instrumental in the awakening of many if not most realized practitioners.
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:36 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:36 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/10/11 Recent Posts
meditating for countless hours on intensive retreat is no laughing matter, and seems to be instrumental in the awakening of many if not most realized practitioners


Agree though "practitioners" sounds strangely like "doers" and so it still leaves the question of there being a need at all of the particular set of instructions that is so culturally ingrained in teachings from centuries ago, especially in this day and age of the glorious internets.

Anyway... Nikolai, thanks. I really appreciate the post; I did in fact spend much time already on your blog, and it was the core motivation for me doing a 10 day self styled retreat at home recently. ... before i started loosing faith again.

Honestly you were the last person on my mind in regard to my last post, but I couldn't intirely dismiss the Vipassana practice as it is probably the case that the deep inquiry in direct pointing is a form of insight meditation. It's just that "meditation" is often understood as synonym to "sitting and closing your eyes".

Anyways.. I guess it doesn't matter all in all.

I just feel that the grueling work of Vipassana meditation is unnatural.

And the whole idea of trying to DO something about one's unhappiness.

What else otherwise motivates the work of Vipassana, than personal will?



Ok here's a question instead of rambling:

Nikolai, do you feel that the months you have *served* on retreats were instrumental in the diminishing of personal will that comes with the gradual lessening of the sense of self? Was that something important to you at all?

I don't buy in the "sila" and "good karma" arguments of Mr Goenkaji, though I see where he is coming from. It just doesn't seem necessary from the perspective of the direct realization. If you see this truth of no self, then it follows that naturally over time, you will burn quite naturally negative tendencies, no? Why would you want to harm anybody when you start to see that there is nobody? I guess they're two schools of thought.
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:50 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:50 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/10/11 Recent Posts
Anyway.. this is where I've come to: I'm willing to bet, that in this day and age with the amazing information that is at our fingertips thanks to the internet... I'm willing to make this bet that if I spend a given amount of weeks/months/years searching through direct enquiry.. I am in fact more likely to succeed than by doing Vipassana practice.

What exactly has evolved about the Path of Insight in the past 2000 years that makes it much more practical today?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:58 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:58 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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hey, just wanted to ask - are you currently participating in a direct pointing session or sessions?
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 8:10 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 8:10 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/10/11 Recent Posts
@Beoman: nope, I want to. I've read a lot lately and I feel like getting my head around the logical aspect of it first for a while, because otherwise my "looking" often gets bogged down by doubts arising. That or after a while of reflection I might get tired of reflection and just look hehe emoticon Long winded way of saying I'm hoping to! Thanks for asking. Are you looking for one poor soul to burn down into oblivion? :p
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:13 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 9:13 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Fabrice D:
@Beoman: nope, I want to. I've read a lot lately and I feel like getting my head around the logical aspect of it first for a while, because otherwise my "looking" often gets bogged down by doubts arising. That or after a while of reflection I might get tired of reflection and just look hehe emoticon Long winded way of saying I'm hoping to! Thanks for asking. Are you looking for one poor soul to burn down into oblivion? :p

ah that's what i thought. i just wanted to point out, that it's really simple - just go and start a thread there! you are talking about the feasibility of it, instead of just going + trying it for yourself. try it and see if it works...
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Elena Joy, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 11:49 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 11:49 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 98 Join Date: 6/30/11 Recent Posts
Here is the feasibility example: Breaking Free: 40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.

I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told yaemoticon

Much love!

P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.
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Yadid dee, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 5:28 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 5:24 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Fabrice D:
Anyway.. this is where I've come to: I'm willing to bet, that in this day and age with the amazing information that is at our fingertips thanks to the internet... I'm willing to make this bet that if I spend a given amount of weeks/months/years searching through direct enquiry.. I am in fact more likely to succeed than by doing Vipassana practice.

What exactly has evolved about the Path of Insight in the past 2000 years that makes it much more practical today?


It's so unreliable to just speculate about these things.

I don't see any likelihood that there is one method which is 'The Best', which leads to the 'Fastest Results', 'No Need To Meditate', 'You Are Already Enlightened', I'm sorry, but that sounds like what people who don't want to do the work make up to convince themselves.
This probably depends upon countless factors, personal tendencies and psychological / mental makeup.

In regards to Vipassana being redundant, ask Nick if he would give up his access to Jhanas, Nirodha and Fruitions which he has been using as a vehicle to AF, in return to just seeing 'there is no self'.

How much Vipassana have you been practicing?
How much Direct Inquiry have you been practicing?

Try both, and let us know what you come up with.
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Yadid dee, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 6:29 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 5:49 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Fabrice D:
Agree though "practitioners" sounds strangely like "doers" and so it still leaves the question of there being a need at all of the particular set of instructions that is so culturally ingrained in teachings from centuries ago, especially in this day and age of the glorious internets.


I dunno man. I spoke to several people who I trust, who told me that doing Vipassana intensly led them to very, very good results, which are worthwhile and that they wouldn't give them up for the world, and that every second they spent on retreat was worth it, so.. thats my take on it.

It seems like the "doing" argument is only valid if you're sitting in meditation thinking about the future or getting lost in thought. If you're sitting and making every bit of *right effort* (not a dirty word, by the way) to see clearly, this leads to results.

It seems like a good mix of both Direct and Developmental is great for one's practice, while an extreme of either leads to stagnation. (The extreme of Direct is 'There is no where to go' and therefore one remains ignorant in one's mental habits, and the extreme of Developmental is 'I have to get enlightened', therefore leading one to miss the present moment).

Here's a great article by Daniel Ingram about this issue, its called "Why The Notion That You Cannot Become What You Already Are is Such Bullshit", here's an excerpt:
Essay:
This notion encourages people to not practice. You can say what you like, but again and again I see people who subscribe to this and similar notions resting on their cleverness and grand posteriors and not actually getting it in the same way that my accomplished meditator friends get it.

Essay:
I myself have known before and after, meaning that I know what I was capable of perceiving and understanding before I underwent meditative training and after, and no amount of being fed the concept that I was already as developed as I could be, was already enlightened, was already there, had nothing to do, nothing to develop, was already as clear as I could be, was already perfectly awake, etc. was going to make the difference that the thousands of hours over years of increasing my ability to perceive things clearly did.


and:
Essay:
Regardless of any kind intentions, the teachings that you perpetuate take a half-truth that seems so very nice and seductive to us neurotic Americans who just can barely stand another achievement trip and have such a hard time with self-acceptance and turn it into sugary poison.


Link:
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/bullshit.shtml
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:12 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 7:32 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Elena Nezh:
Here is the feasibility example: Breaking Free: 40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.

I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told yaemoticon

Much love!

P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.


Hi Elena,

I think what you fail to see is that your years spent meditating on courses ultimately served you more than you know to be happier with the realisation that you say helped you achieve freedom. Without those years of honing the flow of sankhara, you would be like Ciaran .

Have a look at the latest blog post expressing the angst and suffering that the initator of RT is going through even though he has seen through the (first) illusion. He is obviously not totally free of the human condition of malice and sorrow, or egoistic tendencies.

There is seeing through the illusion of self (which technically is only stream entry) and then there is refining and cultivating the flow of becoming or the flow of affect/being/sankhara (which will end the fetters that can lead to supposedly "free" people acting like arseholes) so that they are NOT flowing in the direction of misery and egoistic unpleasantness but in the direction of freedom from misery. This is what vipassana practice accompanied by the whole original buddhadhamma package of sila, samadhi and pañña and the whole AF package of practices (these days, I don't see too many difference) helps one do.

Vipassana leads to seeing through the illusion of personal identity eventually, yes. Direct seeing can help one along faster to that goal it seems. I mean, I was directly seeing when I got SE as well as when I got MCTB 4th path. BUT I was also honing the flow of sankhara in a particular direction. And it also resulted in extremely easy access to jhanas and nanas and a whole lot more freedom than what Ciaran has expressed about his realisation. This easy access has led to fast progress in eradication of the fetters, towards AF.

I think the most important reason to practice insight is to see the playing out of dependant origination. Not just to see through the (first) illusion of personal identity. This is just the first step. So to poo poo vipassana practice is to poo poo seeing dependent origination. At your own risk. With or without the illusion of a personal identity, the flow of suffering /becoming continues.

I highly recommend reading The Shape Of Suffering by Thanissaro to get an idea of what I'm talking about. Just seeing through personal identity does not lead one to freedom from all suffering. There was never a self to begin with, yes. But there is the flow of becoming which you seem to be ignoring. Many people here at the DhO are not.

I also advise that any RTer read The Paradox Of Becoming by Thanissaro to get a idea as to what one can do to end the flow of becoming. There is also the Actual Freedom website as well as the DhO wiki which point to similar practices in refining and ultimately (if it bakes your cake) ending the flow of sankhara.

There is no self to find, but there still is the flow of sankhara, my dear. You dealt a little with it in all your years of vipassana practice. How could you overlook such a thing? Haha.......stink of enlightenment makes you do things. I know. ;-)

I am not saying direct pointing doesn't works. I have talked to two yogis who said they got from MCTB 3rd to MCTB 4th path via it recently. So there is something there of value. BUT, make sure anyone thinking that direct pointing is going to be THE only answer to your ills.....read this first:
http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.com/2011/07/demon-theory.html


as well as this blog post:

It seems the leader of your movement also sees that there is more to do. Do you not, Elena? You think your years of vipassana where a waste of time?

:-)

Nick

Edited a few times!
upa saka, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 8:38 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 8:31 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 16 Join Date: 11/14/10 Recent Posts
This is my working assumption when dealing with these issues:

Basically the business of awakening boils down to something that is conceptually deceptively simple.The brain is an organ, it evaluates input and based on the feedback it gets from the environment and it's pre-programmed instincts. It uses this evaluation to solidify certain neural path ways. Once these pathways are solidified processing of input becomes effortless. Take language learning as an example, at the beginning nothing make sense to the child, but the parents continually talk to the it and provide re-enforcing feedback when it appears the child has understood what they meant, over time the child learns to speak effortlessly, same thing for reading or doing math or any other human en devour.

Now the problem with the brain , is this exact mechanism can reinforce things which are simply not true, children are taught that their is a self, it is re-enforced over and over by society , and all input is processed with that underlying assumption.

What all these techniques do is retrain the brain, all the states, and attainments are incidental, the fundamental thing that is going on the brain is being trained that their is no self, once that re-enforcemnt is complete then truth is "seen", reality is pristine , the brain does things effortlessly and there was never a need for an I. That is where is the sense of freedom comes from , the effortlessness in which the brain does every thing including presenting reality to you in a way that is magnificent.

This is why AF works and this is why RT work, they are both programming the brain to see something that is true.

Vipassana also works but IMO doesn't fully align the brain with what is true, by reducing reality to sensations, it is ignoring the thoughts (only the sensory aspects of thoughts is focused on, thoughts are noted but not deconstructed and understood, there is no evaluation of whether thoughts that arise are true or not). The end result of vipassana is that people make progress but the half truth of the process is maddening since they are only seeing half the picture, and all the sign posts and experiences (nanas , frutions, mind states ) that come across their path are just adding to the confusion.

That being said this business of awakening is similar to the movie inception, where the heroes, are immersed in nested levels of dreaming, waking up in one dream only to find them selves in another, yet believing that they have woken up, there should always be a sense of doubting the experience. It's precisely because the brain is powerful and malleable that "doubt" is essential, your brain will believe anything, it's just a matter of telling it over and over that it is the right thing.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 8:41 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 8:35 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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upa sika:


Vipassana also works but IMO doesn't fully align the brain with what is true, by reducing reality to sensations, it is ignoring the thoughts (only the sensory aspects of thoughts is focused on, thoughts are noted but not deconstructed and understood, there is no evaluation of whether thoughts that arise are true or not)????????????????. The end result of vipassana is that people make progress but the half truth of the process is maddening since they are only seeing half the picture, and all the sign posts and experiences (nanas , frutions, mind states ) that come across their path are just adding to the confusion.



Woah there nelly!

Vipassana practiced properly DOES NOT ignore the four foundations of mindfulness. If you are referring only to vedananupassana that is the only thing taught in the Goenka tradition, you have just ignored all the other vipassana traditions that include dhammanupassana, khayanupassana and cittanupassana. Thoughts should be included as objects to become aware of. Goenka does not have a monopoly on the term Vipassana.

Best to check your facts before making silly sweeping statements like that again.

:-)
upa saka, modified 11 Years ago at 7/12/11 7:55 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 8:45 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 16 Join Date: 11/14/10 Recent Posts
I was reffering to what I understood (not necessarily what was taught) by MCTB and KFD First Gear and Panditarama. My take away from these sources, was "just note" what ever arises, don't get into analysis of what is going on.

Setting aside what appears to be a miss-representation of vipassana, what are your thoughts about the main point I was trying to convey. the brain is an organ, it will believe anything, essentially all these teachings do is keep pointing to it what is true.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:14 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 8:57 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
upa sika:
I was reffering to what I understood (not necessarily what was taught) by MCTB and KFD and Pandidharma. My take away from these sources, was "just note" what ever arises, don't get into analysis of what is going on.

Setting aside what appears to be a miss-representation of vipassana, what are your thoughts about the main point I was trying to convey. the brain is in organ, it will believe anything, essentially all these teachings do is keep keep pointing to it what is true.


Ok, I see what you were trying to say. Vipassana alone doesn't address the beliefs that may support the arising of certain habitual tendencies that lead to suffering. In the pali canon suttas, there is talk of taking on the whole 8-fold Noble Path in order to remove all those potential obstacles towards freedom. This entails removing "beliefs" or locked-in thought loops that are not conducive to awakening and path. I'm operating under the notion of the fetter model of awakening , not the model expressed in MCTB. I think that is an incomplete and misleading model. Vipassana practiced by itself, without taking on right view or right thought for example, may not be as effective a means to awaken.

The AF path goes right for the balls. The AF path has one directly dismantling all beliefs that are an obstacle to experiencing actuality as it is. That is why it works so well.

Yes, one must ultimately have a look at the views and beliefs one holds to see if they have locked one out of actuality.

:-)
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 10:06 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 10:02 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/10/11 Recent Posts
@Yadid

I dunno man. I spoke to several people who I trust, who told me that doing Vipassana intensly led them to very, very good results, which are worthwhile and that they wouldn't give them up for the world, and that every second they spent on retreat was worth it, so.. thats my take on it.


I also saw significant results such as an overall reduction of mind agitation (more calm), overall reduction of anxiety , and saw a deep emotional pain I had in specific situations completely disappear.

I am sorry if I seemed to say that Vipassana practice is "poo poo" ;) or can be compared at all the the direct realization pointed at on the RT forums.

I 100% resonate with what Nikolai said about sankharas having sat myself on Goenka retreats I had a very similar observation when seeing Ciaran's "demon theory" post, I thought... he's talking about these tendencies...

With or without the illusion of a personal identity, the flow of suffering /becoming continues.


I get that and this is where perhaps the "heart" of the RT and DHO communities are different. Perhaps because Ciaran went through a lot of crap, he wants to help others. We're all in this. Some people want to free themselves. Feel like God on earth, when there is still so much pain around. You have no duty to others, in a sense, true... It still bothers me.. perhaps because I am not awakened yet. But like Ciaran I sincerely hope that I won't get to the point where I look at my fellow humans and think, "hahaha, they are so deluded. I am so free."

Didn't you mention somewhere about Goenkaji's AT's making the vow NOT to awaken in this life? If it's true perhaps there was a reason for this. When I sat on 3rd retreat and felt this wave of love taking over, filling every cell of my body I was really touched. I thought.. (perhaps with my distorted view fair enough...) I thought "Isn't it amazing, that the people whom are supposed to be the closest to me: my parents, family, friends.. they have never been able to help me heal my suffering. And here complete strangers are helping me and others." I get goose bumps just thinking about it again. There is something deep about this. If these ATs were experiencing AF, do you think they would be there serving the world at large? Helping to free others?

EDIT: I suppose there is no right or wrong in the end... but if everything is alright as it is... and then again you write a blog or participate here... everybody participates in one way or another... effff.. I give up thinking about this :p
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Yadid dee, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 10:19 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 10:15 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
@Fabrice:

Meditation could also be seen as a brain-changer.
The brain cannot change in one second *SNAP* and all the becoming / suffering tendencies eradicated in an instant. It takes some work.

Also, the RT use of the word 'Freedom' and 'Liberation' are the lowest of standards I've ever seen, and the nauseating 'score-card' keeping ('How many people have you liberated?!', and the strange prachiness - "If you're tired of seeking email me, come to my forum, please please please let me liberate you, and put you on my scorecard").. anyway, many things seem too screwed up to reflect any serious, down-to-earth, mature path, but as always, there are some bright points.
upa saka, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 10:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 10:45 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 16 Join Date: 11/14/10 Recent Posts
Yadid dee:

The brain cannot change in one second *SNAP* and all the becoming / suffering tendencies eradicated in an instant. It takes some work.


True, but I don't think that's what those guys are saying, if you look at some of those threads there is a lot of back and forth, assuming the person seeking help was actually doing the work their was a lot of self inquiry and brain power being applied towards cracking this riddle.

Yadid dee:

Also, the RT use of the word 'Freedom' and 'Liberation' are the lowest of standards I've ever seen, and the nauseating 'score-card' keeping ('How many people have you liberated?!', and the strange prachiness - "If you're tired of seeking email me, come to my forum, please please please let me liberate you, and put you on my scorecard").. anyway, many things seem too screwed up to reflect any serious, down-to-earth, mature path, but as always, there are some bright points.



I agree, just because they have seen something that is true, doesn't mean everything they do or say is true, or not self detrimental. I am not a Buddhist, but I agree with nicks observation regarding the 8 fold path, not sure if this is what nick was saying but in my simplistic view it keeps your brain from re-enforcing false belief. For example Right Speech, the RT guys are clearly ignoring the psychological impact of habitually using profanities and harsh speech, they are all re-enforcing each others behavior , their brains are being wired to see it as a positive, I am sure the behavior carries out to other areas in their lives beyond the "arena" and becomes detrimental to their sense of well being.
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Elena Joy, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:14 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:14 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 98 Join Date: 6/30/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Elena Nezh:
Here is the feasibility example: Breaking Free: 40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.

I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told yaemoticon

Much love!

P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.


Hi Elena,

I think what you fail to see is that your years spent meditating on courses ultimately served you more than you know to be happier with the realization that you say helped you achieve freedom. Without those years of honing the flow of sankhara, you would be like Ciaran . !


Nick, I value, and it shows everywhere - in my blog, in the thread I posted where I worked with J. from this site, the talk I had with him afterward. It's not even I value, more precise: there is so much appreciation in me for every - every, even smallest and seemingly unimportant experience. For Vipassana - monumental appreciation. If you read that thread, you will see a place where we are talking about it.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:21 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:19 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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Nick, I value, and it shows everywhere - in my blog, in the thread I posted where I worked with J. from this site, the talk I had with him afterward. It's not even I value, more precise: there is so much appreciation in me for every - every, even smallest and seemingly unimportant experience. For Vipassana - monumental appreciation. If you read that thread, you will see a place where we are talking about it.



Hello Elena,

As you see value in your past vipassana practice, then shouldn't this also inform your approach to advertising the possible results of direct pointing? Wouldn't it be a better approach to NOT downplay vipassana practice and insinuate it as useless (which seems to come across in your past posts) and perhaps offer a more holistic inclusive view to your propaganda approach?

:-)
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Elena Joy, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:20 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:20 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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Nikolai .:
All you post


Is based on your assumptions on me. Not true. Seriously. Read again.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:33 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:22 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Elena Nezh:
Nikolai .:
All you post


Is based on your assumptions on me. Not true. Seriously. Read again.


Impressions inform assumptions. Impressions are notoriously difficult to be trustful of, yet feeling "beings" of all shapes and sizes rely on them an awful lot. Perhaps you should keep that in mind when drive by-ing. It's called skillful means. Perhaps Yadid above would have had a better impression of your approach if you had taken that into consideration. A present wrapped well is more fun to accept than a present wrapped in old newspaper with bits poking out, as is a sugar coated pill easier to swallow than just a plain old pill. Something to keep in mind the next drive-by?

;-)
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Elena Joy, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:41 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:35 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 98 Join Date: 6/30/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:


Hello Elena,

As you see value in your past vipassana practice, then shouldn't this also inform your approach to advertising the possible results of direct pointing? Wouldn't it be a better approach to NOT downplay vipassana practice and insinuate it as useless (which seems to come across in your past posts) and perhaps offer a more holistic inclusive view to your propaganda approach?

:-)


Holistic approach? There are plenty of others who offer this. So if you drawn to that approach, no scarcity there. I only do what I am inspired to do, and to use direct pointing is my inspiration at the moment. Those who approach me attracted to this approach too, otherwise they would not ask, right? I didn't come to J., knocked on his door and started to shout on him that there is no him, actuallyemoticon hahaha, that would be funemoticon. So just let it be, as a legit choice. No confrontation here, just addition. If you know Shinzen Young, hard-core Vipassana guy, whom I deeply love and appreciate for much guidance in Vipassana in conjunctions with dozen of Goenka retreats, he woke up with direct inquiry. It's on youtube, the video where he talks about it.

Yes, its a stream entry, but before you step into the stream, you stuck on the shore, regardless what you are doing - shopping or meditation. And just to get into the no-self state is not enough for stream entry, has to be clear realization that will spill out on your day to day life - clear realization that you do not live your life, no such thing.

Where are you - in a stream or on the shore only you can know if you ask yourself sincerely and listen to the answer, and do not discard it. Honesty can point to what is.
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Elena Joy, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:38 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:37 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 98 Join Date: 6/30/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Something to keep in mind the next drive-by?

;-)


watch the sensations -emoticon
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:47 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 11:45 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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Elena Nezh:
Nikolai .:
Something to keep in mind the next drive-by?

;-)


watch the sensations -emoticon


Excellent, Elena.

You are paying attention. Also have a look at any residual beliefs that direct your "self"-less intentions. They may be directing the flow of sankhara in the wrong direction. Also become aware of how "you" as any affective feelings still persist, even though "you" can't see a self in any of it.

Something to truly ponder: "I" am my feelings and my feelings are "me". What does this tell you about illusions?

Lucky you were sent to the DhO and not the Dhamma Wheel forum. At least here you may take something of value away with you, without getting jumped on by any hungry hounds.

:-)
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 3:41 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 3:41 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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Nikolai,

If you know something I don't, then regardless of where you are, you are in a good position to teach me.

And this is a Non-dual/Immediate sub forum, FYI.

;-)
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 4:57 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 4:57 PM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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Having never helped anyone with direct pointing before, i don't think I'd be good at it. If you feel that it would help you Fabrice, then start up your own thread and as an experienced RTer to coach you. Couldn't hurt to try..

:-)
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Elena Joy, modified 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 4:03 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 4:03 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 98 Join Date: 6/30/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:


Lucky you were sent to the DhO and not the Dhamma Wheel forum. At least here you may take something of value away with you, without getting jumped on by any hungry hounds.

:-)


It's a week pass since I registered. And 3 of the people from here saw the illusion with my help this week, working A LOT, by the way. In my free time, without anything in return. What the fault you see here? I don't understand why you became aggressive?? You puzzle me.
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Elena Joy, modified 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 4:08 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 4:08 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

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Fabrice D:
Nikolai,

If you know something I don't, then regardless of where you are, you are in a good position to teach me.

And this is a Non-dual/Immediate sub forum, FYI.

;-)


Fabrice, this can't be teached. This is not linear teaching, progressive like Vipassana. There is no instructions not for the guide, not for the one who is guided. It's a flow, a dance between two. One who is guiding need to be rooted in the truth, that's all is needed. And much compassion and inspiration. That's all
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 9:52 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 7:12 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Elena Nezh:
Nikolai .:


Lucky you were sent to the DhO and not the Dhamma Wheel forum. At least here you may take something of value away with you, without getting jumped on by any hungry hounds.

:-)


It's a week pass since I registered. And 3 of the people from here saw the illusion with my help this week, working A LOT, by the way. In my free time, without anything in return. What the fault you see here? I don't understand why you became aggressive?? You puzzle me.


Who is assuming now, Elena? No aggression arising at all, just the urge to clarify. Please don't take anything I say to be aggressive. It isn't meant to be. Apologies if you took it like so. However, a friendly pointer--> It may be your own feeling "being" that is feeling and interpreting that aggression. What is feeling like it needs to defend itself?

All I am saying, is that perhaps you are lucky you came to this website and didn't go to another website where you weren't welcomed and allowed to do your thing. People here are more open minded and willing to test things. In other places, not so much. And my advice concerning skillful means is valid. If you feel the pull to spread your realization to the stars, then by all means do so, but remember that you are dealing with feeling "beings", and their reactions vary. Your urge to help is noble and I am happy to see that people get help to the stage you talk of. However, be careful with the whole point scoring thing. I've seen how they talk at RT about such things. No point scoring is kept here nor the need to broadcast such things. Skillful means is something you could take into account if you wish to save the world.

I've seen how unsuccessful one RTer was at the Dhamma Wheel forum (another forum). I can't find his thread as I think it was deleted by the mods there. Thus you are lucky you came here rather than there and had the chance to help 3 people. Good for you! Did I knock that? Please show me where I knocked that and I will edit it out for your comfort.

Keep showing those who ask the way to your realization! :-)
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faB, modified 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 9:37 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 9:37 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 34 Join Date: 6/10/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Having never helped anyone with direct pointing before, i don't think I'd be good at it. If you feel that it would help you Fabrice, then start up your own thread and as an experienced RTer to coach you. Couldn't hurt to try..

:-)


It was a tease, as was the smiley, which strikes me as an unskilful use of special characters giving the impression of condescension... something to keep in mind since you seem to be concerned with skillful use of words and giving the right impressions.

As for the tease, I meant that who cares where Elena is on the path? If she is somewhere that she saw something that she can help others see, then that is sufficient, that was my point.

Perhaps the no-nonsense, Zen like approach of the direct path and the Theravada approach shouldn't be trying to cohabit in the same forum. These appear to be two very different ways of looking at reality.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 9:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/10/11 9:41 AM

RE: Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
It was a tease, as was the smiley, which strikes me as an unskilful use of special characters giving the impression of condescension... something to keep in mind since you seem to be concerned with skillful use of words and giving the right impressions.


Aah, sorry if that is how you read the smily face. It's a habit that was not meant to convey such a thing. Would a real smile, face to face convey the same thing? I actually meant why not giving it a go? I was serious. I'm not sure how you read condescension in it. Maybe it is residual feelings from reading Tommy's thread?

I'm pulling out. People are getting ansy and defensive and it's contagious.


As for the tease, I meant that who cares where Elena is on the path? If she is somewhere that she saw something that she can help others see, then that is sufficient, that was my point.


Ok. Did i say she should stop helping? Can you show me where I insinuated that so I can change it and make it clearer?

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